Moonstone Forums

I find myself agreeing with much of what Dan (aka BBI Big Shoulders) says and he makes some very good points about the nature of "logos."

This is what I don't understand, what I find illogical in all this;
According to how it was put to us over at the BB yahoogroup, this "new logo" needs to be changed to avoid any rights issues. I am assuming that there is a concern that the traditional entrenched Wing Bs logo might just be the property of the same whom-ever at the moment owns the rights to any BB film.
Yet, here we have Moonstone with the "Return of the Screw" mini series and what do I find inside it's pages?
In issue #1 on Page 3 the traditoinal Wing Bs logo is on the back of B. Banzai's concert jacket. Pages 5 & 9 it's on the gates to the Institute. Interestingly the Wing Bs logo is absent in issue #2 from the front of the Bus and not used in this issue at all.
Another entrenched logo that might be of concern connected with the film's rights is the "88" logo which is also used in the mini series despite it's awkward association with a certain "hate group." (for those of you that might not know, "88" is being used to represent the 8th letter of the English alphabet, 88 = HH = Heil Hitler. Unfortunate yes and we all know that as a Team Banzai reference it represents the 88 keys on a piano). The "88" is in issue #1 on B. Banzai's concert jacket shoulder, the Institute's telephone, the Jet Car, and in issue #2 on the boy Rumbroast's jacket.

Then there are the companies like Starland and Moonbase Atlanta (Google them if you don't believe me) that have been using the Winged B logo and others associated with the film to produce tee shirts for a very long time, without any rights to them I might add.

Why I ask? Why, with all that's already been used in the comic with the Wing Bs logo,  to other's selling tee shirts, is this concern about creating a "new" logo?

If, on the other hand, it's not all about the rights to the Wing Bs logo, why change what's been working over two decades?

It just doesn't make any sense to me. Can someone make any sense of this?

BBI Dragon

PS, just want to make it clear, I do appreciate what Moonstone is doing for the Banzai Universe and I am supportive. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything they are doing or shouldn't offer another perspective. I only hope Moonstone is open to listening. One way or another, any new logo will be accepted by the fan base no matter what it is. The real choice at this point in time is HOW WELL will it be accepted and how successful will it be.

I won't pretend to be a legal expert here, but I do have a couple of observations.

First of all, logos aren't something that become "entrenched;" it's people's way of thinking about them that does. Just wanted to clear that up.

Second, that Starland and Moonbase Atlanta have been selling unlicensed images from The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai for years now in no way validates the legality of their doing so. The new logo developed at Moonstone, as far as I understand these matters, is an officially licensed image which affords their use of the new logo a legal legitimacy not shared by similar Starland/Moonbase Atlanta merchandise. I can't really speak to the use of the original logo in issue #1.

Third, and really most importantly,  Moonstonen has to call their own shots as a business. They are accepting the financial risks involved in introducing a new product to the market place. Now it's really up to the market. If people like the logo, they'll buy the shirt. If they don't, they won't. I think input from potential customers (us fanses) is fine up to a point, but it's dangerous to go too far down that path. Think of all the potentially good products out there that were likely "focus grouped" to death.

Dan

Dan makes some good points yet again in his reply to this thread but in at least one case he's misunderstood the meaning to what I've said. My bad, I see where someone might get the wrong idea.

In the point I made about the two companies that have been using the winged Bs and other recognizable BB logos on products, what I was referring to in general is that it's been going on for a long time and no one has yet stepped forward to stop them from using these logos. That might mean no one has taken notice, no one cares or no one knows they own the rights to these logos. I would not suggest that Moonstone or anyone else looking at doing something "official" should do something wrong just because others are, that's so not like Team Banzai in the first place. Rather my point was that it just might be an imagined issue of rights to the winged Bs logo where no issue exists, case in point, the companies using these logos. It's all speculation and with so many unclear rights issue surrounding the BB license that maybe it is smart from a business perspective to just not go there, not to take the risk, just in case. On the other hand, Moonstone has already taken some risks and come through looking good for their efforts. Business is never without risks, it's about taking them and making good.

Back to another point I made; whatever is presented as the new official logo for something like a tee shirt will be generally accepted by the current and future fan base and membership in Team Banzai. The decision if it's not already set in cement is HOW successful will this decision be short and long term.

As for focus grouping something too much, I refer back to the above point. One way or another, it would seem that a new logo will be offered through Moonstone, there isn't in question as far as I can tell. The logo might not even be open for discussion for all I know. But this IS a discussion board and the topic is the new logo, so that's all a very few of us are talking about, hardly much of a focus group really. But I know what you mean all the same. The final decision is in the hands of the business savvy people at Moonstone who have so far proven a good track record with the new BB comic project.

BBI Dragon

Hey Dragon,

I understand what you're saying here. Again, my knowledge of intellectual property laws could probably fill a soda can, if that. So, in the interest of continued arm-chair quarterbacking, here goes nothing...

First, it is the nature of business to both embrace risk and to minimize it at the same time. Without embracing risk, you cannot advance as a business. Without minimizing risk, you cannot continue to advance as a business.

When you say, "Rather my point was that it just might be an imagined issue of rights to the winged Bs logo where no issue exists, case in point, the companies [currently] using these logos. It's all speculation and with so many unclear rights issue surrounding the BB license that maybe it is smart from a business perspective to just not go there, not to take the risk, just in case," I think you hit the nail on the head as far as why there is a need for a new logo. I will bet you dollars for donuts that if BB finds itself growing to the point where the studio currently in possession of the theatrical rights to TABB determines they are in a position to make respectable dollars licensing images from the film, you will see MGM (or whoever owns those rights) pulling a Paramount Pictures maneuver per the Star Trek franchise, aggressively protecting those rights by shutting folks like Starland and Starbase Atlanta down lickity-split as far as their BB merch goes. Why take on a risk like that when the alternative will likely please fans just as much and avoid any headaches?

As far as the short/long term success of the new logo goes, who can say? That's the point I was trying to get at. It's a total unknown. So far I haven't really seen any naysayers squaring off against the new logo on this thread, which seems like a pretty good argument for the new logo's future success. Some have said, "It's ok," but the only heat I've seen was  leveled against the shirt sporting Dave Dorman's "C" cover from issue #2, and I think that shirt rocks!

You are right though; this is a discussion group and the topic is fair game for discussion. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the logo, Dragon. What exactly are your concerns?

Dan

You are right though; this is a discussion group and the topic is fair game for discussion. Maybe you could tell us a little bit about your thoughts on the logo, Dragon. What exactly are your concerns?

My concern as an average, run of the mill, Buckaroo Banzai fan is that the new logo sucks! See my previous post if you're interested in the details. I wouldn't wear the octopus shirt if it was free.

We can argue from now until doomsday over the aesthetics of the logo shirt.  However, what's important is how well the octopus shirt sells.  Since you're still trying to convince us that it's a great logo shirt, I'm assuming sales are poor.

Dude, we're talking about two totally different things here. The image on the shirt you are referring to is NOT the new logo! The "octopus shirt" is a totally separate issue! The "new logo" shirt we're talking about isn't even available yet if I remember right.

I think the reasons you're confusing the "octopus shirt" with the "new logo shirt" are, a) we don't have both images right there in front of our noses side-by-side to compare as we discuss and, b) the "octopus shirt" incorporates the Banzai Institute seal within the image. As Dave said earlier on in this thread, the octopus shirt is a picture, not a logo. The "logo shirt" is a re-design of the classic "flying Bs" logo-and that's it. No Buckaroo. No guitar. No katana. No octopus. Just a...logo!

I have already repeatedly said that it is sales of ANY of the designs that really matter in the end, and I have NEVER said that either shirt is a "great logo shirt." I have said that I like the "octopus shirt" a lot (At least in black. Not as keen on the white T.), but hey, THAT'S JUST ME! Only the folks at Moonstone know how well any of their shirts are selling, so don't go confusing the opinions of a fan with a sales pitch. I'm not going to try and convince you or anyone what to buy because, frankly, it's none of my business, and it's besides the point from where I'm sitting.

So, in review...Shirt + BB and octopus = NOT the new logo shirt. Shirt + New logo = The new logo shirt. Are we cool on that point now?

Dan

Thank you for asking, I'll address my thoughts on the new logo as well as some general thoughts associated with the topic.

But first, thank you Dan for getting Prof. Zero back on the same page. I thought we were all on the same page after I'd posted awhile back with the new logo attachment, but guess not. BTW, the "octopus shirt" could actually make a decent tee for Buckaroo Banzai, it's not a logo, but it could work. More on this in a bit.

I'm going to quote "Moonstone Dave" here for the sake of reference;
"Now, as far as completely overhauling the logo goes..? Well, we considered it. But see above the part about logos. The(ie) job is to be stylized in such a way as to be quickly recognizable for the product it is representing. The more you change it, the less immediately identifiable it becomes with that product. So, when doing the "tweaking," we placed a great deal of importance on keeping it as visually similar as we could. Musta worked, too... you all seem to know what it is! LOL"

The original Winged Bs or "flying Bs" logo is very well established and frankly in my opinion a very well designed logo. The "new (Moonstone) logo" is taking the classic great logo, changing up a few of the lines and adding a bar on top. It looks awkward, top heavy to me and is not what I consider an improvement or fair progression of the basic concept. If the entire goal is to be quickly recognizable, it accomplished that. But to me, it's like wanting to have real vanilla ice cream but getting something with artificially flavor and Splenda sweetener. It falls short of my expectations.
There are a lot of variations of this theme that could have been explored but I'm not sure any of them would ever be another "great" winged Bs logo. To my perspective, if you aren't going to use the original, maybe we should be looking at starting from scratch.

Okay, this leads me to some general observations about tee shirt art and more specifically science fiction tees. I've looked over the tee shirts in the B. Banzai realm and taken a look at several others in the genre. The majority of tee shirt art falls into two categories. The first is a visual representation of a "something" from the movie or TV show in just a few colors, often monotone or using at most 3 colors which include the tee shirt's color. The actual images can be detailed but what makes this type of design work is the simplicity of the overall look. In B. Banzai we have the Banzai Institute, Winged Bs, Yoyodyne, the TV (series) Crew design and "Team Banzai" logos either in monotone or just two colors. What's often referred to as the "Movie name logo" uses multi colors and falls into the second category. As an added feature, most of these shirts have a familiar quote from the docudrama on the back, a nice touch.
The second category is the poster art or photographic image on a tee shirt. The "octopus shirt" would be in this group if it was to be used. This is a popular class of tee shirt art and one the fans love to wear.

Back to a new logo for Team Banzai. We've established that there is a need to stay away from using any of the classic logos, so the next question is; what might be quickly recognizable for the product it is representing, "Buckaroo Banzai?" Well to start with, the words "Buckaroo Banzai" could be part of the design, right?
I think after all this analysis that reinventing a brand new logo design would be the better choice. I appreciate the fact that Moonstone put some thought into the new logo concept, however in my opinion they missed the mark on this one.  If you can't have real vanilla ice cream, go for chocolate cake. Include "Buckaroo Banzai" in it for the sake of quick recognition and create the new future classic logo for the product, for Team Banzai.

Blue Blaze Irregular Dragon

Hmmmm...I wonder about the whole "If it ain't the original logo, I'd rather have something entirely different," mentality. What I mean is, "original" logos are frequently resurrected and given a new spin periodically with a great degree of success. One need go no further than the numerous permutations of Batman's "bat symbol" to see that variations of an existing design concept can succeed without a need to start from scratch, which leads into the next point.

Just like anything, everyone has their own preferences. I'm sure that amongst die-hard Batman fans you will find numerous examples of some who prefer one version of the Batmobile or a costume or bat symbol over another. That's just the way things go. In fact, it is usually when people start getting too radically removed from the original that fans start kicking up the most fuss. Take Spiderman in film as an example. Organic web-shooters over mechanical web-shooters anyone? That was quite a stink in its time.

The Spiderman example above does point one thing out about updating a long-standing favorite: As long as you get the spirit of the original right, you can get away with some big changes.

In the case of the new BB logo, it's kind of difficult to say what people are thinking about it. The small number of participants in this thread probably indicates that most people are either pretty happy with the new logo, apathetic about the new logo, or apathetic about participating in this discussion thread. If I were to hazard a guess, it would be that "thread apathy" has set in.

What doesn't make much sense to me is getting worked up over the new logo before it's even been released on a shirt. If it sells, great. If it doesn't, I wouldn't be surprised if a new logo design comes along at a later date. That's usually the way these things work. The one thing I know for sure is that it's nice to have such a "dilemma." Two years ago this conversation wouldn't have even been possible!

Dan

An improvement is one thing, a creatively enhanced resurrection is cool, that's fine, but that's not IMO what we have here. It's my opinion that I'd rather see something brand new created over what has been presented.

(snip)

See my above opinion.

Looking over the BB boards and their history, I'd be inclined to say it was Moonstone bulletin board apathy and apathy in general. Again, my opinion, my observation.
There is a marketing concept that for every letter a TV show receives it represents a number of others with the same basic opinion, a percentage that is represented. I'd be willing to hazard a guess that what we have is about a 25% thumbs down to the new logo, a 50% who just don't care one way or another, they'll think about buying anything as long as they think they can afford it this week and want it bad enough, and the remaining 25% that think it's great.

It's called, voicing an opinion. Trying to make a difference if one can be made before it's been released. Oh, it will sell, no question but I've already gone over that part of this discussion.

"A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead

"Nobody is a nobody, everyone had something to offer." B. Banzai

Something "new" is always welcome, if for no other reason than it being a stepping stone for the future. Just like a mini-series comic, a new official logo and what ever other surprises are on the horizon.

Blue Blaze Irregular Dragon

I understand that it's your opinion, Dragon, and that's fine. My "What doesn't make much sense to me..." comment was simply my opinion. I didn't say that showing concern doesn't make sense, only that it doesn't make sense to me. Nothing wrong with either point of view; they're just not the same opinion. I think being concerned and trying to act upon that concern is a good thing. Never said otherwise. It's just for me, personally; irregardless of my personal feelings about the new logo, be they bad or good, it all comes down to the democracy of the market place and people voting with their dollars. I don't know if that's cynical, but it seems the one way to discover for certain if a product, no matter what it may be, is working for people or not.

Dan